Interview with Dr. Qiang Zhou

Dr. Zhou: Yes, I did. It has been twenty years already. Time flies.

Xuqiong: Indeed, I cannot believe how many years have passed since I left Hefei. I gathered from Dr. (Kunxin) Luo that at least five people from your class have become principle investigators in various universities.

Dr. Zhou: Yes, that's correct. My class (818) have been quite successful, probably the most successful class from Department 8 (Biology) in terms of the number of people becoming principal investigators. For example, at UC Berkeley alone, there is another 818 alumnus, Liu Fenyong, who is a faculty member with the School of Public Health. Luo Liqun, another 818 alumnus, is a professor at Stanford; Xue Ding at the University of Colorado; and He Sheng, probably at University of Minnesota. There may be more, but these are the names offhand.

Xuqiong: I asked both you and Dr. Luo about how many of your classmates stayed and succeeded in a life sciences research career. As you very well know, many USTC biology alumni came to the US to pursue graduate studies, but likely only a small percentage have persisted in academic research in the long run. Dr. Luo suggested a few reasons for this high "attrition" rate, such as personality, and more importantly, personal interests. So here is my question: did you choose the biology major knowing that you were indeed interested in life sciences research? Or it was merely peer pressure, but somehow by luck or default, you made the right choice?

Dr. Zhou: I chose biology mainly because of personal interest. You could almost tell that many 818 alumni would sustain and succeed in academia even back then at USTC. Now looking from hindsight, 818 had a group of ambitious, hard-working students. I remember we were always following professors around with questions and seeking opportunities to do hands-on research as early as possible. It might have been quite unorthodox, but that may very well be the reason underlying 818's success. Back then, I felt that my classmates were very competitive and everyone worked hard.

Xuqiong: So there are at least five USTC alumni who are faculty members at UC Berkeley: Youself, Dr. Luo, Dr. Liu, and there are Professor Cao at Haas Law School and Professor Yang with the Chemistry Department.

Dr. Zhou: Yes, USTC alumni have been very successful.

Xuqiong: This is probably why the founders of AF felt that we need to work hard to continue USTC's success. AF governing body has started a PR campaign, which includes a book project to publish stories about successful alumni. Would you like to be involved with this project?

Dr. Zhou: Certainly. I would very much like to share my experiences with students at USTC. And I would be very happy if my story can be encouraging to those young people.

Xuqiong: The Ray-Wu scholarship was available when you in college, wasn't it?

Dr. Zhou: Yes, I came to the US with the CUSBEA (China and Unites States Biochemistry Examination and Application) fellowship, now called the Ray-Wu scholarship. There were three of us from 818 who won this fellowship: Luo Liqun now a professor at Stanford, Hu Song at UCSF and myself.

Xuqiong: How many female students were there in your class?

Dr. Zhou: Probably about thirteen. Actually I don't remember the exact number now.

Xuqiong: So none of them has obtained a faculty position yet?

Dr. Zhou: None to my knowledge. But there may be a few who are still doing postdoctoral research right now, so there may be even more faculty members from 818 in the future.

Xuqiong: Do you think there is a disadvantage to woman scientists, such as family responsibilities? Is there some kind of tradeoff?

Dr. Zhou: There were a lot of disadvantages in the past. The situation is getting better now, as we see more and more female graduate students pursuing a scientific career these days. The society as a whole has become more supportive to women scientists. But, we have to admit that there is still a long way to go.

Xuqiong: So you believe there is a correlation between academic performance in college and future career developments.

Dr. Zhou: Maybe it is not quite a correlation; academic performance may serve as some kind of indicator for prediction of the likelihood of one's future success. I doubt the prediction can ever be 100% accurate though. All the top students cannot be guaranteed success; but all those who have succeeded probably did well in college. I think good grades suggest one's capability to succeed, but success also requires hard work, good timing, and pure luck. Another extremely important factor is persistence. So top class rank in college may be a basis for future career [advancements], and when coupled with the other factors—timing, luck and persistence, the "prediction" can be pretty good.

Xuqiong: How did you and your classmates feel about coming to the US for graduate school?

Dr. Zhou: Of course everyone wanted to have the opportunity. This has been a USTC tradition since very early on. Even when I first started as a freshman at USTC, there had been "role models" to look up to. Until the entering class of 1980, there had been a USTC policy to send students with the highest scores on the college entrance exam to study abroad. I remember someone from the 1980 class (808) was sent to Germany. So since the very beginning at USTC, we had been exposed to the idea of "going abroad." Then, there was CUSBEA—the Ray-Wu Society fellowship. Every year, two to three graduating students who succeeded in the national CUSBEA competition went to the US to receive graduate training. Before I graduated from USTC, I knew of several CUSBEA fellows who had already finished their Ph.D. studies here and started postdoctoral research. So from very early on, we had role models to look up to.

Xuqiong: Back then, CUSBEA was still an option available to those who wanted to come to the US. But it was highly competitive, wasn't it?

Dr. Zhou: Yes, several candidates were nominated by each university (about several hundred candidates nationwide) based on their undergraduate academic records to participate in the national examination. After the exam and then interview conducted by the American professors, about 30-40 students were selected each year to go to various graduate schools in the US. The CUSBEA program has been very successful in terms of its alumni: there are many outstanding researchers who have become leaders in their respective fields. There will be a celebration of the 25-year anniversary of the Ray-Wu Society in Beijing this June.

Xuqiong: You have been invited to give a talk there, right?

Dr. Zhou: Yes. I have a program here. Take a look and you will find a number of "crouching tigers and hidden dragons." [laugh] Many speakers in this program are among the best in their respective fields. In fact, they have also invited a few Nobel Laureates, including my postdoc advisor—Professor Phillip Sharp to give key-note addresses at this conference.

Xuqiong: Let's talk about USTC for a moment. You spent five years there. Do you miss anything there at all?

Dr. Zhou: Something I did not realize when I was there. Based on my discussions with people from other colleges in China, I feel that USTC offered more freedom to its students, and it was more flexible in handling certain matters. For example, the attendance at certain classes such as political study was never really enforced and always very low. So we skipped these classes and saved time for something else like collecting, copying and distributing articles from international scientific journals among our classmates. To my knowledge, other universities were much stricter about these matters.

Xuqiong: Your class was indeed hardworking and ambitious: you almost started a journal club. I have never heard of such activities by other classes.

Dr. Zhou: Maybe that was an indication of our genuine interest in scientific research. I think students nowadays probably save time to work on a business plan to start a company or something like that.

Xuqiong: So at the time you were a high school student, you knew for sure you wanted to become a biologist.

Dr. Zhou: I debated between electric engineering and biology. I almost chose the former.

Xuqiong: Was there any special reason for your interest at such a young age?

Dr. Zhou: I think my family background was the main reason: my father was a pharmacologist, my mother has been a medical doctor, and nobody in my family was an engineer. The entering class of 1981 at USTC was quite impressive: we had 13 or 14 students with the highest exam scores in their own provinces. In my class [of 818], we had the highest score from Tianjin, which was also the second highest score nationwide. Nowadays USTC probably cannot attract these many top students.

Xuqiong: The entering class of 1989 was also quite special, mainly because students were avoiding Beida that year. I think we had 11 highest regional scores. Biology was also very hot then, and a major reason was that it was relatively easy for biology graduates to obtain US scholarships. I remember on the very first day my classmates were talking about how many people from 848 "had gone abroad." This was something perhaps unique to USTC that attracted a lot of high school graduates. What can USTC do now to find a niche that would help it maintain the source of good students?

Dr. Zhou: I think it is much more difficult nowadays. USTC was very young and lively, with the special class for the gifted youth and, on average, very young faculty members. It is much harder now to find something unique about USTC that would attract students to Hefei. At least in the short run, its location will be troublesome. But it would be different in the long run: a few top US universities are not located in the big cities, for example, Duke. On the other hand, many top schools are indeed clustered on both coasts, if you count the schools in California and Boston. So location can be very important.

Xuqiong: Many USTC alumni think relocation is the best way to revive USTC.

Dr. Zhou: If relocation is possible, it may be the best way to go. But if it is impossible, we may have to figure out the second best way. The location is not so attractive, but USTC can offer attractive benefits for its faculty members and students.

Xuqiong: So in the end, it depends on money.

Dr. Zhou: Yes. You have to offer better packages if you want to attract the best professors to teach and conduct research at USTC. Students will also come when they see that they will have a chance to receive the best education at USTC. I know of US-educated people who went back to USTC first, but only a few months later, transferred to Beijing or Shanghai. But it is also hard to come up with better offer packages: where is the money? Although it may be an obvious solution, it is very difficult to put down to practice.

Xuqiong: You must have heard about the mergers of universities in China. USTC was involved in a very controversial merger with a tobacco institute in Hefei. There were a lot of debates about whether USTC should issue its diplomas to graduates of that institution. Many USTC alumni were not happy about the possibility of tobacco institute students getting a USTC diploma. What do you think about this?

Dr. Zhou: I didn't know about this merger. But I can give you an analogous example. Here at UC Berkeley, we have a lot of students who get transferred from community colleges. Of course, they must have been top students at those colleges. We treat them absolutely the same as other Berkeley students. As long as they pass the requirements here, they will receive the same Berkeley diploma without any discrimination. You can only tell the difference by their transcripts. So I think the most important thing for USTC in this merger is to set the same academic standard: as long as the other institute's students can fulfill the requirements, a different diploma is unnecessary. As long as it is a fair standard for everyone, there shouldn't be any discrimination. It is fair to treat all the students' academic achievements alike.

Another problem is that the college entrance exam in China cannot fairly distinguish students once for all. A number of invited speakers in the Ray Wu Society anniversary program I just gave you went to no name colleges in China, yet they are the world leaders in their fields now. There is no strong correlation between the ranking of one's college and future career advancement. Maybe someone can do some research about this: finding out where the top Chinese research scientists were from originally. It may be an interest study.

Xuqiong: It seems that everyone knows exactly what problems USTC are facing. But no one knows how to solve these practically.

Dr. Zhou: Unfortunately that's right. The ultimate problem is where to find money to support top-notch research, to provide better benefits for faculty and to maintain a high quality student body.

Xuqiong: As you may know, AF has used the donations to establish several scholarships funds. The awards are based on academic record and/or financial need.

Dr. Zhou: This is a very good idea and AF has done a good job in making it possible. But AF can provide USTC with more than just scholarships. It can take advantage of the fact that many overseas alumni have already become established scientists, who can contribute to the development of USTC. After all, we have yet to have an alumnus who can donate like Bill Gates. So in terms of money, AF can offer minimal help in the short run. AF can keep in touch with USTC's administration, faculty and students, and serve as a constant link between Hefei and the outside world. Many alumni can become role models for students there. From my own experience, role model can be very important for young students: I was very much encouraged by the successful CUSBEA fellows before me.

Xuqiong: AF and USTC administration have discussed about a "mentor" program: one alumnus takes charge of one USTC student. How would you set up such a program to achieve the ultimate goal of building USTC into a world-class university?

Dr. Zhou: Realistically, I would first ask how to establish contact with the overseas alumni. Second, I would ask which ones [among all the alumni] can provide the guidance that these young students need. Maybe the best way is to locate relatively successful alumni first and invite them back to USTC to give presentations and meet with students. Alumni can serve as consultants for the USTC administration and funding-raise. I remember the last time I visited USTC, many students asked me about graduate program admissions after my seminar. So the thesis of the meeting was switched from our specialized research to how to apply to US graduate schools. I guess at least many of us could provide some useful information in this aspect.

Xuqiong: You may also know that many Chinese universities have started to commercialize their research and technology. How do you view college students starting their own business or participating in business plan competition? What do you think about USTC's own business school or even law school?

Dr. Zhou: I don't think students should do business [together with their schoolwork]. As a student, the very basic responsibility is to study, unless one has super capability to multi-task. I believe the most important thing for a student is to focus on the coursework and establish a solid foundation of knowledge. As for the institution itself, it would be nice to be able to convert laboratory discoveries into commercial products.

In terms of business plan competition, it is part of the education that management schools offer. But for biology, physics, or mathematics undergraduate students, it may be a bit too early.

I think it is a very good idea for USTC to "branch out" into other disciplines than pure science and technology. Initially, USTC was almost modeled after MIT. MIT has become more and more "diversified" and it has a top business school now. Law school may be a bit too far for USTC yet, unless there is a focus on technology law or patents. I don't think anyone would expect a USTC graduate to be a criminal defense lawyer [laugh].

Xuqiong: But the logical thinking by a scientist or engineer may be very helpful for criminal defense [laugh]. Let's move on to another topic: your own career development. Dr. Luo told me that you both were very lucky.

Dr. Zhou: There was definitely some luck. Timing is always important: whether the school you want to apply for a job has an opening in your specialty. For example, the building I am in right now is very crowded, and the Barker Hall [another biosciences building on Berkeley campus] is being retrofitted for earthquake protections; so no matter how good you are and how much you want to come to Berkeley, there is simply no opening at present. The quality of your own research is of course very important.

My experience was atypical. Usually one has to go through 4 or 5 years of postdoctoral training before applying for a faculty position. But I met one of the Berkeley faculty search committee members [Professor Tjian from Berkeley] at a meeting [for the Jane Coffin Childs fellowship] when I was about two and half years into my postdoctoral training. This professor has known my work very well, because my Ph.D. thesis research happened to be in the same area as his lab's major focus. He invited me to apply for the opening at Berkeley. At that time, I was not quite ready yet because my results had not been published. But I applied, gave a talk here and was offered a job. So my experience is very atypical since I did not experience the whole application process at all.

Xuqiong: I have known of quite a few people who found academic jobs this way, though.

Dr. Zhou: It may very well be true. Had I not gone to that meeting, or had he chosen not to stand in front of my poster, I might not have had the opportunity. It is true that luck and timing are important. In addition, your work has to reach certain level and of high quality, so that someone else would be interested enough to give you the opportunity.

Xuqiong: I understand you also have some teaching obligations.

Dr. Zhou: Yes, I am teaching two large undergraduate classes, with over 500 students combined, three times a week this semester. I have arranged it this way so that I will have time in the fall to attend conferences. I don't have much time for lab work this semester.

Xuqiong: Your teaching obligations are more than mere lectures, right?

Dr. Zhou: No, it is much more than that. It is spring break now, so I have time for this interview. I prepare exam questions and hold office hours. But I do have TAs to help me. Maybe USTC can have graduate student TAs to help professors save more time for research, especially for large classes. It would be a good teaching experience for graduate students as well, and USTC can provide portions of their stipends based on their TA work.

Xuqiong: Would you please talk about your science? What's the main direction of your lab?

Dr. Zhou: We study transcriptional regulation of the HIV virus. We have also started to branch out a little bit into the field of programmed cell death, but still using the HIV model. Our focus is on a multi-functional HIV-encoded protein called Tat. The most prominent function of Tat is its unique role on HIV transcription during a unique stage called elongation. It is a very well established system. Tat functions by interacting with many co-factors. So we are searching and identifying these cofactors and study their roles in controlling HIV gene expression.

Xuqiong: How did you come up with Tat?

Dr. Zhou: I started working on Tat during my postdoc training years at MIT. I have always been interested in transcription regulation and HIV is an interesting system to work with. We also found that Tat can induce cell death in almost every cell line we have tested so far. So we are trying to find out the mechanisms underlying this process. It seems that Tat acts on the cytoskeleton structure and may interact with microtubules. So my lab has two general, distinct directions: gene regulation (molecular biology, biochemistry) and cell death (cell biology), but they converge on a single protein: Tat. There are other directions that I don't have time to work on yet.

Xuqiong: So Dr. Luo and you each picked a protein to work on?

Dr. Zhou: That's right. It is probably true for everyone.

Xuqiong: How big is your lab now?

Dr. Zhou: I have one postdoc, three graduate students, "one and a half" technicians (the wife of my technician is doing some volunteer work here). I feel guilty because I don't have much time to advise my graduate students this semester due to my heavy teaching obligations.

Xuqiong: My last question is a bit personal: how do you feel about your wife [Dr. Luo]'s success?

Dr. Zhou: She [Dr. Luo] was the top student in her class (828) [proudly]. We have a lot of mutual support. Because our labs are small, we hold lab meetings together and co-author publications. It is extremely helpful, because biology is getting more and more diverse, and nobody can read all the papers in different fields. We share our different views and discuss the developments in different fields. We also share our technical expertise.

Xuqiong: This is the scientific aspect of support. What about others [on a more personal level]? Do you consider yourself open-minded?

Dr. Zhou: I think so. Woman scientists in China face more challenges from the society. One of our female professors at USTC was once labeled "Iron Lady," and given a somewhat negative image of caring about her lab only and neglecting her family. This perception was completely false. I also think the assumption that, just because she works hard on her research project, she must not be cooking for the family is quite ridiculous. Superficially, it seems that Chinese women have been "liberated." But in terms of fundamental values or at some subconscious level, I am afraid that the tradition still holds. In the US, you may have encountered feminists. But I think feminism is quite different from the Chinese understanding or point of view. In Western societies, the term is more about ideology and about equal right for women, while in China the term is somehow used to describe successful career women only. They have very different meanings.

Xuqiong: Thank you so much for your time. Do you have any question for me?

Dr. Zhou: [Just a comment,] I think AF has done a very good job in helping USTC.

Xuqiong: Would you like to become a member?

Dr. Zhou: Sure, I would be very interested.